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Historical Commission Meeting Minutes - February 17, 2021

3/22/2021

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Historical Commission Member Attendees: (7– Quorum)

Dawn Coughlan – Chair
Lorraine Tindaro – Vice Chair
Mark Evans – Secretary
Paul Stephens

Tony Wagner
Catherine Callahan
Patti DeFroscia

Historical Commission Members Absent (1):

Leah Jennings (Excused)

Historical Commission Guests (3):

Mike Bedrick
Bob Wise
Tony DiSario

OPENING:
The meeting was called to order by Chair Coughlan at 7:03 PM. Secretary Evans announced that the meeting was being recorded to expedite transcription of minutes, followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
Secretary Evans continued with Members Roll Call and Introduction of Guests.

OLD BUSINESS:

EDGE’S MILL HISTORIC DISTRICT
1. Chair Coughlan introduced Bob Wise of RGA, and turned the mic over to Mark E to ask specific questions.
  1. Have the rates changed in the last 6-months or are we locked in at the price in the most recent Proposal?
    1. Mr. Wise confirmed that we are locked in at that rate.
  2. Concerned about the wording in the proposal (fully confident) vs the wording in his email to Karen Marshall (good candidate, but can’t promise anything). For the HX Com to ask the BOC to fund a project of privately owned homes is new territory, and any discrepancy could lead to problems for Township and the Hx Com.
    1. Mr. Wise said that he could not predict what the state is going to say, and cannot guarantee it. But after speaking to the state he is fully confident that we will get the DOE. Most of the resources are still standing, and it’s a good candidate. Nothing standing in the way of it. He would not take our money if he did not think it was a great candidate. He stated that “fully” may have been too strong of a word, maybe he should have just said “confident”. Mark E expressed appreciation for his honesty and recognition of the discrepancy.
  3. In looking at the potential top end cost, could this get out past $9-$10K for just the DOE.
    1. Mr. Wise noted that he just saw a typo in the fee schedule, it had an extra 5, should be $6,170, not $6,1750. Believes that the quote of $6,170 for DOE and $5,765 for the National is reasonable based on all of his experience, it should cost no more. The state could always “wake up on the wrong side of the bed”. Believes it’s a good price, but not cheap. Mark E agreed that it is a fair price.
      1. Dawn recognized Cathy C who shared that we’re going to find a way to do it with or without the funding. It took a year for her to do the work on her own home. Dawn C thanked her for all of her work.
      2. Dawn C recognized Paul S. He questioned if the fee is for the DOE? Bob said it’s about half. Confirmed that the total cost all the way through nomination would be $11,935.
      3. Dawn C asked Mark E if we would be asking the BOC for the full $11,935. Mark said that he thought it was being done in 2 phases and that we would only be requesting the $6,170 at this juncture.
      4. Paul S stated that were benefits to having only the DOE, would prefer we go all the way. Mr. Wise agreed that having the DOE provides some level of protection against any proposed developments at step 1 of the process. Paul mentioned that the widening of the Bypass Interchanges is the biggest threat.
      5. Dawn asked if Tony or Patty had any questions. Patty asked how many houses, and asked about the house at the end of Bondsville Road. Cathy responded that it is 6 homes, and that house is not a part of it. Paul S stated that it could not be added to the protections because it’s not part of the milling district. Mr. Wise said that it’s good that we have the core., and the mill is still standing.
      6. Dawn thanked Mr. Wise for his time, and excused him from the meeting.
2. Dawn stated that we need to resolve it this evening. Asked if we can split it into 2 projects?
  1. Paul replied that we could ask him to do just DOE, and that the township only consider funding the DOE. In good conscious we need to present the 2nd part to the BOC as a future cost.
  2. Mark stated he desperately wants it to happen. But:
    1. The Township made it through the first year of Covid without laying anyone off or cutting any services. There are no guarantees that we’ll make it through this year, and won’t have an idea of what our tax income will look like until later in the year.
    2. There is no precedent in Township history of the Twp paying for something for private residences. He believes it would be good for the township, and being on the National Register could lead to us being a historical “destination”. If he was one of the owners, he would try to convince his neighbors to come up with the $ for the DOE. Once the DOE is obtained we’re on more solid ground, the Twp. could be in a better financial position post Covid, then approach the BOC and ask them to pay for the National Registry part of the process.
      1. Cathy stated that it would be insane for the Hx Com to not forward the proposal to the BOC, and Mark needed to take his Commissioner hat off and just be a part of the Hx Com. Mark clarified that he was strategizing how to get what we want. The wrong approach could destroy our credibility.
      2. Paul S recommended that we send the Proposal to the BOC, not “ask” for money up front, this has our endorsement, and ask them to consider it. This is the cost now, and could possibly go up. We don’t want to lose credibility. A lot of residents attend the BOC meetings. We must recognize that these are tough times.
      3. Cathy stated that she didn’t understand what we’re voting on, getting it on the registry or the money, and why we’re even debating it. Mark clarified that we all want it to be on the National Registry, we’re voting on if we want to ask the Township to spend potentially over $12K.
      4. Tony W asked if we could ask for a portion thereof, that there could be subsidized in a partnership with the homeowners. That it didn’t have to be an all-or-nothing. And that we should move it ahead.
      5. Mike B said we were on to something. “This is what it will cost”, and put it onto the docket for consideration throughout the year.

Dawn asked that Paul S make a motion.

Paul S proposed a motion that we forward the proposal to the BOC, with our endorsement for this area being worthy of the National Registry. The $ part is not part of our purview, but are asking that they consider it.
Moved by Dawn C
Mark asked if we could amend the motion to say that we will forward the proposal to the BOC, and that Dawn and Paul will attend the meeting to pitch it in person.
Dawn threw it back to Paul who amended the motion to include that we present it in person.
Moved by Dawn C
Second by Tony W
Vote called by Dawn C
Motion passed 7-0

GARDNER-BEALE HOUSE / CASD PROGRAM
1. Dawn C thanked Tony W for getting us started with drafting a letter to the CASD Superintendent stating our support, and that the letter is at the Township being put on Caln Letterhead.
2. Dawn reported that she had a wonderful conversation with the new teacher who is running the program, and that Lisa Doane-Hartley is there once a week.
3. Dawn asked if Paul S had any more information, and added that the teacher is very involved, wants to know everything. He’s into the Hx architecture of the building, can’t wait to get into it.
INVENTORY OF HX RESOURCES
1. Dawn stated that she had provided the materials to Mark E. Mark reported that he had cleared with Kristen Denne to ask Denise to scan everything. Thanked Patty for digging it all out.
VA DEMO PERMITS
1. Township has no knowledge of notification, nor does Lorraine or Josh of BOC and Cathy of Hx Com. It’s Federal property anyway, so we have no say.
2. Paul S thinks we should at least write a letter to the State Hx Pres Office to let them know that we just found out about this, can find no record of ever being notified, yet the documentation states that we did not express interest in consulting. That would not have been the case if we had been notified.
3. Paul’s concern is that the State and VA is aware of whether they have drawings and other documents relating to these buildings so there’s a historic record of them. We might ask if we can come and photograph to make a record for the Township.
4. Dawn asked if the letter should come from us or from the Township. Mark said he thought it would be best to come from us. Paul S will put together a very rough draft with what we should ask for.

BAKER-SMITH PROPERTY
1. Mark said he consulted with the Township Manager and she feels it would be better for the BOC to approach him. Mark suggested that it be pitched at the same time as the RGA proposal.
2. Dawn asked if there is a For Sale sign on it. Mike said he hadn’t seen one. Paul S said he saw the sign but wasn’t certain if it was on that property. Dawn will contact Ray S to see if it is for sale

SUB COMMITTEE REPORTS
1. SPACKMAN FARM – Paul S
  1. Paul stated that he has an email from Chris Caba, Flander-Chase-Knox House. and will forward it around to all of us.
  2. Mark said that he got an email from Bryan K. That we have the contracts in order and will be scheduling the Pre-Construction meeting with Kupex probably for early March. They have 60 calendar days after receiving the Notice to Proceed to complete the work, which should be by late May/early June. There was much celebration
2. MARKETING AND SOCIAL MEDIA – Tony W

The main accomplishment was the letter to CASD mentioned earlier in the meeting.
Next step is to get endorsements from Katie Muth and Dan Williams.
1. Mike B asked if he should forward the contact info to Tony, or make an introduction. Tony said he’d prefer an introduction
Tony asked if Mike had been in touch with Mike McGann from Coatesville Times. Mike replied that they had sent an email out, but had some issues and had to change their email address. So they’ll try again.
Tony asked Mark about the writer he knew about. Mark said it was Catherine Quillman, that she now writes for Today Media, so it could be a much bigger project if we can get her interested in what we’re doing. Mark said that he will reach out and see if we can get her involved, then discuss at March meeting what approach we want to take.

AT THIS POINT WE ACCIDENTALLY WENT OUT OF ORDER AND COVERED NEW BUSINESS. SECTION “C” BELOW WAS COVERED AFTER NEW BUSINESS

HISTORICAL PRESERVATION – Cathy C
1. With Leah absent, and Cathy dealing with loss in the family, there was not much to report this month.
2. Cathy said that she was concerned about the trees that were cut down on Edges Mill Road, and that is sort of things we need to protect against in the new ordinance.
3. Cathy said that signage and brightly lit signs are true concerns for the new zoning. Mark agreed, and said that signage will be addressed in the Taskforce
4. Mark added that he and Paul S were discussing the idea of having our own HARB, and getting it incorporated into the new zoning.

NEW BUSINESS:

CALN FB MONTHLY UPDATE – DC

Dawn recommended that we do a Monthly Historic Update in all Caln social media (FB/Website). Maybe start with Spackman or Schoolhouse.

Tony said that the only limiting factor is that we have no control over the FB page or website, so everything depends on Abbey’s availability, and if she’s too busy, we can’t get much done
1. Mark asked if we should start our own FB page and ask the Township to link to it (prefaced by saying it was a stupid question)
  1. Dawn said she sees it more as a news feature, and that Patty could work with Tony to make sure the History and the Media are connected.
  2. Tony replied that we could have legal issues with moving forward with our own repository of info.
  3. Dawn doubts we would get the traffic on our own.
Lorraine mentioned that there was a great article in the newsletter about the Schoolhouse, and maybe we should use the Newsletter.
1. There seemed to be agreement that the Newsletter was the best approach since it goes out in hard copy, by email and is posted to the FB page
2. Tony reiterated that Abbey is sometimes too busy, and that he had reached out to Mark earlier in the day to see if he should follow up on an item that had been waiting response for some time. We’re still stuck with being dependent on the Township having to do the work for us.
  1. Mark said that he’s been told we’ll never have the ability to do our own work on their FB page
  2. Tony said that Abbey has been very helpful and has done a lot for us
  3. Dawn said she’d give Abbey a call and report back in March. There’s some good things happening and the more publicity the Hx Com gets, the better it will be for Hx Preservation.

Dawn asked if there was any other business. There was none.

Dawn asked for a motion to adjourn.
Moved by Mark E, second by Tony W
Dawn called the vote.
Motion passed 7-0.

Meeting adjourned at 8:25 PM.

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Historical Commission Meeting Minutes - January 20, 2021

3/18/2021

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Historical Commission Member Attendees: (7– Quorum)

Lorraine Tindaro, Acting-Chair
Mark Evans, Secretary
Dawn Coughlan
Paul Stephens

Tony Wagner
Catherine Callahan
Patti DeFroscia

Historical Commission Member Absent (1):

Leah Jennings (Excused)

Historical Commission Guests (3):

Paul Mullin
Mike Bedrick
Tony DiSario
Kathleen Hood

OPENING:
The meeting was called to order by Acting-Chair Tindaro at 7:04 PM, followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. Secretary Evans announced that the meeting was being recorded to expedite transcription of minutes.
Secretary Evans continued with Members Roll Call, and Introduction of Guests.

Approval of 1/20/21 Minutes
Chair Cathy Callaghan requested that mention of Bob Wise be removed from the 1/20/21 minutes. There was discussion, but it was decided that it was appropriate for it to be there.
PAUL S MADE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE 1/20/21 MEETING
SECOND BY DAWN C.
VOTE CALLED BY LORRAINE T
MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
2021 Reorganization
Lorraine T called for Nominations for the position of Chair, and thankd Cathy Callaghan for her service as chair. Everyone applauded.
Cathy Callaghan nominated Lorraine Tindaro
Mark Evans Nominated Dawn Coughlan
Tony Wagner offered a second
Mike B asked who he was seconding, Lorraine or Dawn? He confirmed Dawn just as Patty DeFroscia added a second for Dawn C.
Hearing no second, Lorraine removed her name from consideration.
Cathy C asked if we needed Leah J present before moving forward with the vote. Since there was a quorum, there was no need.
MOTION MADE BY LORRAINE FOR DAWN C TO BE NAMED NEW CHAIR BY UNANIMOUS CONSENT AND CALLED THE VOTE
DAWN C ELECTED NEW CHAIR UNANIMOUSLY
Cathy C thanked Lorraine for being her Vice Chair and never missing a meeting, also Mike B.
Lorraine T passed leadership of the meeting over to new Chair Dawn C, who in turn thanked Lorraine for doing the preparation for the meeting, especially with so much business being considered
OLD BUSINESS:

EDGE’S MILL HISTORIC DISTRICT
1. Mark E asked if Lorraine and Mike had reached out to Bob Wise as requested; they said that they had not. Mark expressed disappointment that they had not thought to pass the assignment on to someone else if they were unable to complete it.
2. Dawn asked if we would be prepared to vote on recommending the District to the BOC after Mr. Wise responds to questions. It was confirmed that with more information we should be ready to vote on the revised RGA proposal.
SUB COMMITTEE REPORTS
1. SPACKMAN FARM – Paul S
  1. Paul stated that he had not heard back from Chris Caba regarding his insights on how to make this property a successful place for events. Dawn asked if he was the manager for Valley Forge event site? Paul confirmed that yes, Chris runs the Flander-Chase-Knox House. Paul asked if any of us know someone who does similar things, such as the mansion in Tredyffrin, perhaps we could contact them.

Dawn mentioned that Leah stated at a previous meeting that Springton Farm hosts events and asked Patty D if she knew if they still did. Patty confirmed that they had in the past, but wasn’t sure if they still do. Paul was clear that all we need is some insight of what we would need to do to make Spackman desirable, to get someone interested by public offering, what we need to do to meet the local laws of PA, and how to market it effectively. Paul S asked if we had found out anything about obtaining an insurance rider for a one day visit by Valley Forge. Mark E stated that he had reached out to Kristen, but with all that’s going on- budget season, Covid - did not expect to hear back right away but hopes to have an answer in February.

Paul asked Mark if there was an update of the Barn Roof. Mark apologized for not having the answer but would get it by the February meeting. Dawn said that she thought at a BOC meeting someone said the material wasn’t available yet.
Kathleen Hood arrived at that point.

KATHLEEN HOOD of Chester County Historic Preservation Network (CCHPN) GAVE A PRESENTATION ABOUT CCHPN and WHAT IT IS, ITS ROLE BEING TO PROVIDE BOTH INSPIRATION AND SUPPORT IN THE IMPORTANT WORK THAT WE ARE DOING. THE PRESENTATION RAN FOR 15 MINUTES, HIGHLIGHTING EXCITING UPCOMING EVENTS. MS. HOOD WILL SEND PAUL S A COPY OF THE POWERPOINT, AND STATED THAT WE ARE WELCOME TO POST IT TO OUR WEBSITE.

MARKETING AND SOCIAL MEDIA – Tony W

Tony W reported that he had not yet heard back from Abbey regarding the Spackman Farm news article
1. Mark E said he had contact info for a writer who is Historic Preservation focused and will provide by next meeting
2. Mike B said he knows Mike McGann who founded Coatesville Times and he may be interested. Mark suggested that they reach out and connect him to Tony W
Mark mentioned that the website looks great

HISTORICAL PRESERVATION – Cathy C
1. Cathy reported that she had emailed everyone some recommendations for our Hx Ordinance
2. Mentioned resource inventory of New Garden that she saw at last year’s CCHPN luncheon
  1. “Shall” is the key word, and is missing from ours
  2. We need to add these items and wording to our resource list
  3. Paul S said it’s a good approach, we have time to get ready for the Zoning Taskforce. Putting things out there in a way we can all digest them in the process is great.
3. Cathy said she was not sure why Leah was not in attendance, but that they had been talking about the Bondsville Mill District. They are moving along in their process with the Register, they filed after us, and that Leah was sad about that.
4. Dawn C thanked Cathy for sending around her Hx Ord recommendations, commenting that it’s great to have them in writing.

NEW BUSINESS:
Mark E requested that we go out of order and revisit Spackman Farm Sub Committee as he had found his notes from the BOC meeting regarding the Barn Roof:
Waiting on the revised contract documents. Because of the change in material, the contract had to be amended, and the docs are “in the mail”. Once they are received, the project can get underway.

ZONING TASKFORCE/HX REVIEW BOARD/AMMEND CHARTER
1. Mark E stated that the Taskforce recommendation will be refined down from the cumulative list coming in from Cathy and Leah’s sub com, and anything else the Commission wants to include. We will vote to individually approve each item, and then submit it to the Taskforce
2. Mark E reported that the Historic Architecture Review Board(HARB) is a “bigger picture” idea that had grown out of a conversation with Paul S. Having the ability to designate local Caln properties that have historic significance, it might be worth exploring the possibility of amending the Hx Com charter to form our own HARB.
  1. Paul S stated that by State law the BOC would have to create the Review Board, but that it goes hand-in-hand with the local designation of historic places. The question arose if we designate it historic, does it have to be done with property owner’s permission? This will have to be researched. We could establish criteria or guidelines and maintenance work that goes into keeping a property up, so we would have a say in protecting the historic integrity and the architectural character of something we deem historic. Guidelines can be extensive or limited.
    1. Dawn asked if he was referring to HARB, and if we need any kind of professional endorsement, or if we can make that recommendation to the BOC? Paul confirmed HARB and that we should be able to do it. It is authorized by State legislature for local communities to set these up. We can recommend to BOC that we form one.
    2. Dawn said that it would behoove us to have HARB, other townships have them and they have been very useful in protecting historic resources; she cited Upper Merion township as a HARB example. Would this be a part of our ordinance?
      1. Cathy said yes, our ordinance is pretty good, but could be much better, and that’s why she and Leah are suggesting more protective language like New Garden and E Brandywine Township ordinances contain regarding distances between historic properties and proposed development, etc.
      2. Paul S said those numbers set the criteria to invoke HARB review. We need to establish the guidelines first and that will take some effort. At the very least, we need to look at guidelines used elsewhere successfully. Dawn stated that is what Cathy is working on. Cathy said that Karen Marshall had been suggesting we get these things into our ordinance.
      3. Paul reiterated that we need the guidelines that allow us to tell them what they can and can’t do.
      4. Mike B read from the ordinance which reads “developed in a sensitive way to the needs of the community”. Paul S stated that language is too vague to be enforced in any way. Mark E said that the ordinance will be addressed as part of the Zoning Update, and it will not cost us anything. Paul S said that once the HARB is established in the ordinance we can develop the guidelines. Dawn closed the discussion by stating that we’re working in that direction and will be submitting it to the Zoning Taskforce
      5. Mark E added that as per a conversation with Paul S. we need to start thinking of our Caln historic resource inventory past the end of 19th century
        Dawn asked if the resource map was something that Patty D would like to be involved in? Patty said she has all of the docs put together previously by Historic Commission members Tom and Patty DeFroscia, Lois Demchak, and Doreen Jacoby, including a color-coded map. Mark asked if she had it electronically. She said no, but there was a copy at the Township. Cathy C said she has a map.
        Paul S asked if these things could be copied/scanned by Township. Mark offered to scan the documents if not. Paul said that having those documents puts us ahead of the game.
CASD PROGRAM: GARDNER – BEALE HOUSE
1. Paul S described the Historic Preservation curriculum at CASH – 4 year program. He met with Joe Tassoni, the new teacher, enthusiastic about the kids. Goal is to do condition assessment and produce a video this semester.
2. Paul S said that it would be helpful if we wrote a letter of support for them. Patti asked if he had spoken Lisa Doan-Harley, the originator of the course, whose ancestors came from Calne England, suggesting Lisa would be a great source of information on the House.
3. Patti said the CASD had once offered the Historic Commission the building for $1. Paul S said it will require a lot of time and effort over the years. The class will put the time into it, but money will eventually come into play. He again recommended that we write a letter, and invite the class to present their video to us, and potentially the BOC (perhaps even the BOC send a letter of support). Dawn said she would draft something.
  1. Mike B suggested we reach out to local politicians Katie Muth and Dan Williams. Tony W will send the letter to both to solicit their support. Mark E asked if Mike B and Lorraine T would introduce Tony W to them. They agreed to do that.
  2. Cathy C asked if the students are allowed inside. Paul S said that wearing N95 masks they should be able to go in, but it’s up to the school. He added that maintenance is supposed to be going in to clean out accumulated junk.
4. EXPLORE IDEAS FOR CALN
  1. Dawn said that E Brandywine does free programs that are very exciting. Dan Campbell representing a National Mills group was a guest speaker and talked about Edge’s Mill as one of the few standing mills from that time period. Maybe in the fall/post Covid, we could put together one of these programs. She would like to work with Abbey on this. She asked for suggestions of topics, what the group thinks about this idea. Paul S said he loves it, and mentioned PA barns, and that we have a great barn at Spackman – it could get attention for us. There is a PA Barn Association.
    1. Dawn suggested that we keep this on the back burner and plan for the fall.
  2. Mark interjected that he recently encountered kids trespassing at Spackman Farm, and suggested we all try to keep an eye on the Farm, and call the Caln Police if we see anything. Tony W asked if there is signage, Mark confirmed.
BUDGET
1. Dawn asked if we had a budget approved? Paul M stated that it was and we got $750. $150 went to the CCHPN membership and we have a $500 balance.
VA HOSPITAL DEMOLITION PERMITS
1. Mark said that he will call Ray Stackhouse in the morning.
2. Dawn stated that she heard 2nd hand that where the doctors lived is slated for demolition because it was in poor condition and too far gone for affordable repair. We didn’t know about it. Paul S said that we would only have been notified of demo permit if it were in the historical overlay district. Paul M asked how many buildings are involved. Paul M googled it and found a document that listed the building numbers and their locations on the campus, it was dated June 2019. Paul S thought they were probably getting their money together to do it this year. Mark E asked how they could demo if it’s on the National Register. Paul S said that the worst they could do is remove the historic designation due to loss of buildings. He thought it was too late for us to get involved and questioned if the BOC or Hx Com received notification in 2018 or 2019. Mark E asked Lorraine T if she remembers this from the BOC. Dawn stated that Ray Stackhouse should have a record of it. Mark and Paul M believed there should be a record. Paul S said we could ask SHPA. Cathy and Lorraine said they did not recall any communications. Paul S said that there should have been a 106 through the SHPA, unless it only went between the Feds and the State, since the property is federal. When it comes to Historical Preservation, “you can’t win when you’re arguing with Churches and Hospitals because one is saving souls, one is saving lives, and all you’re doing is saving a ratty old building, and you can’t win that argument”. Mark asked if we should try to get it to the press and get attention, or would that make it more likely that they will try to get out of the Nat registry? Paul S said that the bigger concern is that they may be planning to build something new, and what’s that going to like? Dawn suggested that we divide and conquer.
  1. Mark reaching out to Ray S
  2. Paul S reaching out to Karen Marshall to see what info she has

Dawn asked if there was any other business. There was none. Mark noted that we had 7 members present for the meeting. Cathy and Lorraine congratulated Dawn on being elected Chair.

Dawn asked for a motion to adjourn.
Moved by Paul S, second by Mark E
Dawn called the vote.
Motion passed 7-0.

Meeting adjourned at 8:42 PM.

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Historical Commission Meeting Minutes - February 17, 2021

Historical Commission Meeting Minutes - January 20, 2021

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